Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss

In this gripping episode of Mind Set in Stone Podcast, Dave and Poppy explore the high-stakes world of negotiation through the lens of Chris Voss's Never Split the Difference. Drawing on his experience as a former FBI hostage negotiator, Voss shares unconventional yet highly effective negotiation tactics that apply to both life-and-death scenarios and everyday interactions.

Learn how to master the art of tactical empathy, uncover hidden meanings in conversations, and navigate even the most challenging negotiations with confidence. Whether you're dealing with a business deal, personal conflict, or workplace dynamics, this episode offers invaluable insights to help you gain the upper hand.

Tune in to discover the tools you need to communicate with clarity, influence outcomes, and achieve your goals without compromising.

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This has been a Big L Riz Media Podcast—where big ideas meet lasting impressions.

Transcript

Welcome to Mind Set in Stone Podcasts where we dive deep into the most compelling books on the shelf. Join hosts Dave and Poppy as they uncover the stories, themes, and ideas that shape our understanding and inspire curiosity. Get ready to explore the big ideas that leave a lasting impact.

Let's get started.

Hey there, ready to dive into the world of negotiation? Today, we're cracking open Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss.

Former FBI hostage negotiator, right?

You got it. Turns out, getting kidnappers to free hostages has some surprising applications in everyday life.

Yeah.

We're talking nailing that raise, navigating tricky family dinners, you name it.

I like it.

So, it's not every day you get to pick the brain of a former FBI hostage negotiator who's literally stared down criminals and terrorists.

It's intense.

But his insights are surprisingly relevant for us regular folks just trying to navigate the everyday hustle.

It's fascinating how Voss took these high stakes tactics from hostage situations and made them relevant for everyone. It's not about aggression, but understanding the psychology beneath the surface.

Okay. So, spill the tea. What's the big secret sauce here?

Voss argues that traditional negotiation advice like aiming for win-win often fall short. Because it assumes people are always logical. But we're driven by emotions even when we don't realize it.

So, ditch logic entirely. Go with my gut feeling every time.

Not quite. It's about balancing logic with something Voss calls tactical empathy.

Okay.

It's about understanding the other person's perspective, not just intellectually, but emotionally.

Yeah.

Which can be a game changer.

That makes sense. Sometimes you can just tell someone's on edge even if they're trying to play it cool.

Right.

You're picking up on those unspoken vibes.

Exactly. Voss gives you the tools to not just sense those vibes, but use them to your advantage.

Okay.

One technique he highlights is labeling.

Labeling.

Where you explicitly acknowledge the other person's emotions.

Okay.

For example, instead of dancing around their hesitation, you directly address it with something like, it seems like you're hesitant about this.

So, by putting their feelings into words, you're not just acknowledging them, but actually disarming the situation and building trust.

Absolutely. Research actually shows that labeling emotions shifts brain activity from the fear center to areas associated with rational thinking. Wow.

Voss has this crazy story about negotiating with fugitives holed up in an apartment.

Okay.

Instead of barging in with guns blazing, he stood outside for hours calmly talking to them.

Wait, seriously, he just talked them out.

He used tactical empathy. Voss didn't make threats or demands. Right.

Instead, he said things like, it seems like you're worried about going back to jail.

Okay.

By simply acknowledging their fears, he created a sense of psychological safety, which eventually coax them out without any violence.

Wow, that's incredible. If it works on hardened criminals, imagine what it could do in our everyday negotiations.

Exactly. That's what's so brilliant about Voss' approach.

Right.

It's all about understanding the human element.

And speaking of counterintuitive tactics, Voss is all about the power of no. He actually thinks getting to a no early on can be a good thing. I have to admit, that sounds a little strange.

It does, doesn't it?

Yeah.

It's the opposite of what we're usually taught.

Yeah.

But Voss says that pushing for yes too quickly often leads to a superficial agreement.

Okay.

They might say yes just to please you, but they don't really intend to follow through.

So, it's like a false whim.

Exactly. Voss believes that embracing no allows the other person to feel safe and in control.

Okay.

Making them more likely to engage authentically.

So how do you invite a no without sounding like you're derailing the whole conversation?

It's all about the phrasing.

Okay.

For instance, instead of asking, do you have a few minutes to talk?

Right.

You could try, is now a bad time to talk.

Okay.

You're essentially inviting a no, but you're also opening the door for them to suggest a better time.

That's brilliant.

Right.

It takes the pressure off and makes them feel like they're part of the process. Right. That reminds me of something Voss shared about his colleague Marti.

Okay. She was incredibly talented, but her supervisor, threatened by her success, would constantly give her impossible tasks, hoping she'd fail.

I think we've all worked with someone like that.

Right.

How did she handle it?

Well, she couldn't exactly say no outright.

Yeah.

Instead, she'd initially agree.

Okay.

But then, through clever questioning, she'd subtly expose the flaws in his logic. Eventually, leading him to see her point of view, she basically maneuvered her way to know without ever actually saying the word.

That's masterful. It's like she was playing a strategic game of chess using those initial yeses to disarm her opponent and create an opening for her own ideas.

Right.

And that's the beauty of Voss' approach. Yeah. He gives you these subtle yet powerful tools to navigate challenging situations with grace.

It sounds like he's all about finding those subtle ways to shift the power dynamic, without anyone even realizing it.

Exactly. It's about understanding the psychology of persuasion and influence.

Okay.

Speaking of which, Voss has some fascinating insights on how we can do that effectively.

Okay.

For one, he stresses the importance of aiming for, that's right, not just a simple yes.

I love that. It's so true. A yes can be meaningless, just a way to end the conversation.

Right. But that's right implies they understand and genuinely agree with you.

Yes.

Voss uses a great example with his son, Brandon.

Okay.

Who was a talented football player, but had a habit of trying to run through blockers instead of around them. Yeah. No matter how many times Voss tried to explain the importance of agility and strategy, Brandon would just say, you're right, but then go straight back to his old ways.

Because he never truly owned the conclusion. He was just superficially agreeing to end the conversation.

Exactly. But Voss then talks about one of his Korean students, who was trying to negotiate a new job within his company. He desperately wanted to work in the Consumer Electronics Division, but company policy seemed to be blocking his request.

However, through carefully crafted question, he was able to figure out his old boss' true motivations. That's when he got that crucial that's right moment.

By listening closely and asking the right questions, he was able to steer the conversation in a way that addressed his boss' needs while also achieving his own goals. It's about uncovering those hidden motivations, those black swans as Voss calls them.

Black swans. Yeah. I have to explain anyone.

Imagine a black swan. You assume all swans are white, and then boom, a black swan pops up and completely shatters your assumptions. In negotiations, black swans are those hidden pieces of information.

Okay.

Hopes, fears, unspoken constraints.

Yeah.

That, once revealed, can dramatically shift the negotiation in your favor.

So, by unearthing that hidden motivation, that black swan, you completely change the game.

Exactly.

Wow.

And Voss gives this crazy example of a hostage situation in Charleston.

Okay.

He was able to get the kidnappers to release the hostage for a fraction of their initial demand.

Wow.

Just by figuring out that the seller was under immense financial pressure.

Wow. That's incredible. It really highlights how much we can miss when we're so focused on the surface level details.

Absolutely. There's always more than meets the eye. Voss encourages us to be more like detectives, constantly looking for those hidden clues that can unlock a breakthrough.

Speaking of unlocking breakthroughs, let's talk about another one of Voss' key concepts, calibrated questions.

Calibrated questions are all about using open-ended inquiries. Okay. Often starting with how or what to subtly guide the conversation towards your desired outcome.

Okay.

The beauty of this technique is that it makes the other party feel like they're in control while you're actually framing the discussion.

It's like you're planting seeds of doubt or inspiration without them even realizing it.

Right.

Instead of accusing someone of being unreasonable, Voss suggests you ask, what are you trying to achieve here?

Precisely. By shifting the focus from blame to understanding, you open up the conversation and create a space for collaboration. It reminds me of this intense story Voss tells about a kidnapping in Ecuador.

A man named Jose was kidnapped while on vacation with his family.

Oh no.

And the kidnappers demanded a massive ransom.

Oh gosh.

His wife Julie was terrified, but she refused to give in to their demands. Instead, armed with Voss' techniques, she decided to negotiate with the kidnappers herself.

This sounds like something out of a movie. What did she do?

She started asking calibrated questions.

Like what?

Instead of just agreeing to their demands, she would ask things like, how am I supposed to do that?

Okay.

Or what are you trying to accomplish by doing this? Right. It was a high stakes gamble.

Yeah.

But it paid off.

Did she manage to get her husband back?

She did. By persistently asking these calibrated questions, she was able to chip away at the kidnapper's resolve and buy precious time. Wow.

In the end, she managed to negotiate the ransom down significantly. Securing her husband's release.

Wow. That's a testament to the power of staying calm under pressure and using the right words. I can't believe how much we've already covered.

It sounds like these techniques could be really helpful, not just in high stakes situations, but in everyday life as well.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

These are skills that can benefit anyone in any profession. Right. In any social interaction.

Yeah.

It's about understanding human psychology and using that knowledge to communicate more effectively and build stronger relationships. I love it. It's like Voss says, negotiation is not about defeating the other side.

It's about getting them to beat themselves by exposing their weaknesses and biases.

Okay. That sounds a little intense.

Right.

But I get what you mean. So how do we do that? How do we use their own psychology against them?

In an ethical way, of course.

The one tactic Voss talks about is bending your counterparts' reality.

That sounds a bit manipulative, like some kind of Jedi mind trick.

Not at all. It's not about trickery.

Okay.

It's about understanding how our brains perceive value and then using that knowledge ethically to nudge the negotiation in your favor.

Okay.

Take anchoring, for example.

Anchoring, like a boat.

Exactly. Think of an anchor setting a reference point.

Right.

In negotiation, the first number put on the table, even if it's outrageous, yeah, acts as an anchor, influencing all subsequent offers.

So, if you start really high, you're setting the bar high.

Precisely. It instantly changes the other side's perception of what's possible.

Wow.

Voss tells this wild story about negotiating the release of a kidnapped woman in Haiti.

Okay.

Where kidnapping was rampant.

Oh no, this is giving me anxiety just thinking about it.

The kidnappers demanded $150,000 and her family was ready to pay, but...

Oh my gosh.

Voss' team noticed a pattern. Kidnappers were always more desperate to settle as the weekend approached, probably eager to enjoy their ill-gotten gains.

Makes sense. So, they stalled for time.

Exactly. They ran out the clock until Friday.

Okay.

Using those calibrated questions to keep the kidnappers engaged.

Right.

Then they countered with a ridiculously low offer. $3,000.

Whoa. That's ballsy. Did it work?

The kidnappers were floored.

I bet.

They countered, but the anchor was set.

Right.

They went from $150,000 to $10,000, then $7,500. Eventually, they settled for just over $4,700 and a portable CD player.

Wow. They really got them down. That's a powerful example of anchoring in action.

Right.

So, start with a number, even an outrageous one, to set the stage. Yeah. Got it.

It's about shifting their perception.

Right.

Not necessarily being completely unreasonable.

Right.

Voss also talks about pivoting to non-monetary terms to sweeten the deal.

Okay.

It could be anything from extended warranties to preferential treatment.

Like throwing in some bonuses that don't cost you much but feel valuable to them.

Exactly. It's about getting creative to make your offer irresistible.

I love it. So, we've got anchoring and sweetening the deal.

What else? Well, there's a whole structured approach Voss calls the Ackerman Model that's designed to get you your target price.

Okay. Break that down for me. Is this about starting high and gradually coming down?

Not quite.

Okay.

With the Ackerman Model, you make your first offer at 65% of your target price. Then you bump it up to 85%, then 95%. Yeah.

And finally, 100%.

Why those specific percentages?

It creates this illusion of significant movement on your part while still keeping you within your desired range.

Okay.

It also reinforces that your final offer is truly your limit.

It's like a psychological dance. You're creating an illusion of progress and finality.

Yes.

I like it.

Voss also emphasizes using non-round numbers.

I never would have thought of that.

Instead of saying $2,000, you say $1,987.

Okay.

It sounds more deliberate, less negotiable.

It's like you've done your research, crunched the numbers, and arrived at this very specific figure.

Right.

I can see how that would make a difference.

Right.

Okay, so we've covered a lot of tactics, but let's go back to those black swans.

Yeah.

It seems like finding them is crucial for gaining an edge.

Absolutely. Voss tells this heartbreaking story about a hostage situation in Rochester, New York.

Okay.

Where they missed a crucial black swan.

Oh, no.

It was the case of William Griffin, the first hostage taker in the US to kill a hostage on a deadline.

Oh, wow. That's awful.

The negotiators couldn't understand his unpredictable behavior.

Right.

What they didn't know.

Yeah.

Because they didn't fully grasp a note, he'd had a hostage read. Okay. Was that he had a history of violence and a death wish.

So, if they had just paid closer attention, they might have been able to save lives.

That's what's so tragic about it.

Right.

It's a stark reminder that we can't afford to let preconceived notions blind us to crucial information. Yeah. Even if it seems crazy at first.

So how do we get better at spotting those black swans?

It's about active listening.

Okay.

Paying attention to those subtle cues and being open to information that challenges our assumptions.

Right.

It's also about understanding our counterparts' religion.

Hold on. We're not talking about their actual religious beliefs.

Right. Not necessarily. Voss is talking about their deeply held beliefs, their guiding principles.

These often dictate their actions, even if they're not consciously aware of it.

You're saying everyone has a religion when it comes to negotiation.

Yeah.

They have their non-negotiables, their lines in the sand. It's like in that story we discussed earlier, the one with the tobacco farmer standoff.

Right.

They were able to peacefully resolve the situation by tapping into the farmer's strong religious beliefs.

Exactly. By understanding those beliefs, they found the key to communicating effectively and building trust, which ultimately led to a peaceful resolution.

It's about speaking their language, connecting on a deeper level.

Yes.

I'm starting to realize that successful negotiation is less about manipulation and more about understanding. Right. It's about empathy.

Yes.

Active listening.

Yeah.

And finding that common ground.

Right.

Okay. So, we've talked about tactics.

Yes.

But what about sealing the deal?

Right. That's where all your preparation and strategy come together.

Yeah.

It's about making sure the agreement is actually implemented and both parties feel good about the outcome. Voss stresses the importance of getting to how, not just yes. What does that mean?

A yes without a plan is meaningless.

Right.

Voss has this incredible story about a kidnapping, where a young boy named Alastair was taken.

Oh no, not another kidnapping. This is stressful.

And the kidnappers were demanding a huge ransom.

Yeah.

Alastair's parents were understandably distraught.

Of course.

But Voss noticed something interesting about the kidnappers' communication.

Okay, what's that?

He kept using the pronoun, we.

Okay.

Even when talking about actions, he clearly took a loan.

Could that be a black swan?

Exactly. It made Voss suspect there was more to the story.

Right.

Which turned out to be true. Wow. The kidnapper is part of a larger group, and by uncovering that, black swan Voss and his team were able to secure Alastair's safe return.

That's incredible. It really shows the power of paying attention to every little detail. Yes.

Even a simple pronoun can reveal crucial information.

Absolutely. Voss also talks about the rule of three, which is basically about getting the other side to agree to the same thing three times during the conversation. Okay.

Whether directly or by rephrasing the question.

So, it's like a triple check on their commitment.

Exactly. It's much harder for someone to fake sincerity or enthusiasm multiple times. Right.

If they're truly on board, they won't hesitate to agree each time.

It's a clever way to make sure you're not getting a flimsy yes that they don't really mean.

Right.

So, we've got to be subtle detectives, masterminds of language, and build in those triple checks.

Right.

What else?

Voss also suggests using your own name during the negotiation.

Okay.

He calls it the Chris discount.

The Chris discount. Does that mean I have to change my name to Chris to be a better negotiator?

Not at all. Voss found that people are just more receptive when they feel a personal connection.

Okay.

And using your name even casually strengthens that connection.

It's like you're breaking down barriers and reminding them that you're a real person.

Exactly. It's a subtle but effective way to build rapport and increase your influence. I like it.

Now, sometimes despite your best efforts, you'll need to decline an offer.

Right.

And that's where Voss' multi-step no strategy comes in.

So how do you say no without actually saying no?

It's about being strategic and respectful.

Okay.

The first step is to express appreciation for their offer.

Okay.

Then you state that it doesn't work for you, but you offer a counterproposal or alternative solution.

So, you're showing them that you're still interested in finding a solution, even if you don't love their initial offer.

Exactly. It keeps the conversation flowing and prevents the other party from feeling like you're shutting them down completely.

That's so important. You don't want to damage the relationship just because you disagree on something.

Absolutely. And if all else fails, you can politely decline and move on. But by then, you've explored all avenues and demonstrated that you're not just trying to be difficult.

Voss shares a great example of this with his student Joaquin. He was trying to buy out his stubborn business partner Bruno, but they were stuck in a stalemate.

Oh no. That sounds tricky.

Bruno wanted the best possible price, so he'd hired a professional negotiator. Talk about high pressure.

Yeah.

But guided by Voss' no strategy, Joaquin managed to navigate the negotiation like a pro.

How did he do that?

He started with a carefully crafted email, asking the negotiator, have you given up on settling this amicably?

Ooh, sneaky.

This created a sense of urgency and got them back to the negotiating table.

Wow, that's clever. So, he was basically saying no to their stalemate, not to the entire deal.

Exactly. And by following the rest of the steps, Joaquin was able to get Bruno to accept a price well below his initial demand.

It goes to show that even when things seem impossible, there's always a way to navigate the situation effectively and achieve a win-win outcome.

It's about understanding human psychology, using emotional intelligence to your advantage, and finding those creative solutions that work for everyone involved.

It's amazing how one book can pack in so many practical strategies. I feel like we've barely scratched the surface, but my mind is already buzzing with ways to use these techniques.

Voss really delivers.

Yeah.

And the real-life examples make all the difference. So, one thing to hear about a technique, but seeing it play out in a real negotiation, that's what makes it stick.

Totally. Like that story about Joaquin and his business partner, it sounded like a recipe for disaster. But by using those simple yet powerful strategies, he was able to navigate a really tricky situation and come out on top.

It's a great reminder that these techniques aren't just for high-flying CEOs or hostage negotiators. They're for everyone, whether you're negotiating a raise, dealing with a difficult co-worker, or even just trying to get your kids to eat their vegetables. These skills can make a world of difference.

So, as we wrap up our deep dive into Never Split the Difference, what would you say is the most important takeaway for our listeners?

For me, it's that negotiation doesn't have to be about winners and losers. It doesn't have to be this adversarial battle. Voss shows us that it's about understanding, finding common ground, and ultimately creating win-win solutions.

It's about shifting your perspective from I need to win at all costs, to how can we both walk away from this feeling good?

Exactly. It's about recognizing that we're all emotional beings. And by tapping into those emotions, both our own and the other person's, we can unlock far more collaborative and mutually beneficial outcomes.

It's like we've been handed this incredible toolkit, but instead of hammers and screwdrivers, it's filled with empathy, calibrated questions, and the power of no.

And the best part, these are skills you can continue to hone and refine throughout your life. The more you practice, the more natural and effective they become.

So, if you're ready to step up your negotiation game, whether you're facing down a high stakes business deal or just trying to decide on dinner plans with your partner, Never Split the Difference is an absolute must read.

It's a game changer for sure.

This deep dive has given us a lot to think about, wouldn't you say?

Absolutely. It's definitely challenged some of my assumptions about negotiation and given me some powerful new tools to try out.

Me too. And for our listeners out there who might be feeling a little overwhelmed by all these techniques, just pick one or two that resonate with you and start practicing them in your everyday life. Yeah.

You might be surprised at the results.

I agree. Start small, be observant, and most importantly, have fun with it. Negotiation can be an exciting and rewarding process when you approach it with the right mindset.

So as Chris Voss would say, go out there, embrace the power of no, don't be afraid to ask calibrated questions, and above all else, approach every negotiation with empathy and a genuine desire to find a solution that works for everyone. Happy negotiating.

We hope you're leaving with fresh insights and a spark of inspiration. Remember to subscribe, leave a review, and check back for more episodes as we dive into new worlds of thought, one book at a time. Until then, keep your mind set in stone and your curiosity open.

This has been a Big L Riz Media Podcast, where big ideas meet lasting impressions.