Daring Greatly by Brené Brown

In this inspiring episode of the Mind Set in Stone Podcast, hosts Dave and Poppy dive into Daring Greatly by Brené Brown — a powerful exploration of vulnerability, courage, and wholehearted living.

Discover how embracing vulnerability can transform the way you lead, connect, and create. 

Dave and Poppy unpack key lessons from the book, sharing personal anecdotes, real-world examples, and actionable steps to help you overcome fear, silence your inner critic, and dare to live bravely.

Whether you're looking to strengthen relationships, build confidence, or lead with authenticity, this episode offers guidance on stepping into the arena and showing up fully in every aspect of life.

Keep your mind set in stone and your curiosity open. 

This is a Big L Riz Media Podcast — where big ideas meet lasting impressions.

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Mind Set in Stone Podcasts. If you enjoyed our deep dive, be sure to subscribe and leave us a review! Share your thoughts with us on social media, and let us know which book you’d like us to explore next. Until next time, keep your mind set in stone and your curiosity open.

This has been a Big L Riz Media Podcast—where big ideas meet lasting impressions.

Transcript

Welcome to Mind Set in Stone Podcasts, where we dive deep into the most compelling books on the shelf. Join hosts Dave and Poppy as they uncover the stories, themes and ideas that shape our understanding and inspire curiosity. Get ready to explore the big ideas that leave a lasting impact.

Let's get started.

Ever get that feeling, you know, that like no matter what you do or where you are, it's just not enough.

Yeah, like you're being measured against some impossible standard. I think we all kind of feel that pressure sometimes.

Yeah, absolutely. Whether it's our work or relationships or even just like how we feel about ourselves today, we're going to try to figure out like where that feeling comes from and more importantly, how to deal with it.

And we're going to be using the work of Brené Brown and her book Daring Greatly to help us out with that. It's a really insightful look at how to step out of that pressure cooker.

Yeah, exactly. So, we're not just going to analyze the problem. We really want to give you some actual tools to change things.

Exactly. And the big idea here is vulnerability. Brown argues that it's like essential to breaking pre from feeling inadequate.

Now, I know when you hear vulnerability, you might think, oh, that sounds kind of weak or even scary. Right. But what if I told you, it's actually the core of courage and connection and a wholehearted life, as she calls it.

That's exactly what we're going to explore today.

So, we're going to tackle some common misconceptions. Is it really weakness? Is it something you can just avoid?

Right. Right. We're going to challenge those ideas and see how embracing vulnerability, not as a bad thing, but as a strength can help you move away from that scarcity mindset and feel a deeper sense of worthiness.

Yeah. And we'll also talk about how these ideas play out in relationships, at work, and even in parenting. So, let's dive right in with a big one.

The myth that vulnerability equals weakness.

Yeah.

It's almost like it's built into our culture, right?

It is. This idea that to be strong, you have to be tough. You can't let anything in.

You can't show any cracks.

Yeah, exactly.

And Brown's research really turns that on its head. She's saying it's not just wrong. It's actually the most dangerous myth out there.

And what I find fascinating is that vulnerability isn't just some, you know, negative emotion. It's like the foundation of all our emotions.

Yes. Think about it. Can you really experience love without the risk of getting hurt?

Can you truly feel joy without knowing it might not last forever? Courage, by definition, requires us to be vulnerable. You have to step into the unknown, face your fears, even creativity.

You have to put your ideas out there, knowing people might criticize them.

That's such a great way to put it. So, when we try to protect ourselves from being vulnerable, we're not just shutting out potential pain. We're also missing out on the things that give life meaning.

Exactly. Brown talks about this interest in paradox. We often really appreciate vulnerability in other people.

We admire their authenticity, their willingness to be real. But we're terrified of being vulnerable ourselves. We're afraid of being judged, rejected.

Right. I want you to be real with me, but don't expect the same from me.

And Brown's research really turns that on its head. She's saying it's not just wrong. It's actually the most dangerous myth out there.

And what I find fascinating is that vulnerability isn't just some, you know, negative emotion. It's like the foundation of all our emotions.

Yes. Think about it. Can you really experience love without the risk of getting hurt?

Can you truly feel joy without knowing it might not last forever? Courage, by definition, requires us to be vulnerable. You have to step into the unknown, face your fears, even creativity.

You have to put your ideas out there, knowing people might criticize them.

That's such a great way to put it. So, when we try to protect ourselves from being vulnerable, we're not just shutting out potential pain. We're also missing out on the things that give life meaning.

Exactly. Brown talks about this interest in paradox. We often really appreciate vulnerability in other people.

We admire their authenticity, their willingness to be real. But we're terrified of being vulnerable ourselves. We're afraid of being judged, rejected.

Right. I want you to be real with me, but don't expect the same from me.

It's like there's this unspoken rule. She even uses the example of TED Talks. You have all these people on a huge global stage openly talking about their failures and struggles, their most vulnerable moments.

It takes a lot of courage to do that.

It really does. And it illustrates this link between vulnerability and daring greatly. To stand up there and share something so personal, something that might not be perfect, that's vulnerability in action.

And those moments are the ones that really resonate with people. They connect us on a human level.

OK, so myth number one, vulnerability equals weakness debunked. It's actually the source of so much that makes life rich and meaningful. Now, let's look at the second myth.

I don't do vulnerability. I have to admit, I've probably thought that myself sometimes.

It's a common one. We try to convince ourselves that we're just not the vulnerable type. We think we can somehow be above it.

But honestly, the only way to avoid vulnerability is to avoid living. Uncertainty, risk, emotional exposure, they're all part of being alive. Can't have close relationships, go after meaningful goals, or experience the full range of human emotions without being vulnerable.

So, when someone says, I don't do vulnerability, what are they really saying? And what exactly is vulnerability not? Because I think there's some confusion about that.

That's a really important point. Vulnerability isn't about just sharing every detail of your life with anyone who will listen. It's not emotional dumping or this need to overshare.

And it's definitely not that carefully curated vulnerability we see on social media.

Right, that very filtered, strategic kind of vulnerability.

Exactly. True vulnerability, the kind Brown talks about, is about sharing your real feelings and experiences with the people who've earned the right to hear them. It's built on mutual respect, clear boundaries and deep trust.

There's a two-way street.

And that idea of trust being built over time, that's crucial. You don't just spill your guts to a complete stranger.

Right. Brown uses this great analogy from her daughter, Ellen, called the marble jar. So, imagine your relationships are like a jar.

And every time someone does something to build trust, keeps a secret, remembers something important to you, shows they care. It's like adding a marble to the jar.

And then if they break your trust, they lose a marble.

Exactly. And Brené found something really interesting. One of the most damaging betrayals in relationships isn't necessarily the big dramatic ones.

It's what she calls the betrayal of disengagement. It's when people stop caring, become emotionally unavailable. They're not willing to put in the effort.

That makes sense. It's like feeling alone even when you're with someone.

Right. And Brown is very open about her own journey. She talks about trying to avoid vulnerability, keeping yourself busy, trying to control everything to avoid those messy feelings.

But she realized that avoiding vulnerability was actually stopping her from connecting with people and experiencing real joy.

Which brings us to that moment in the book where she talks to a man at conference who says he's not good at vulnerability, but he's damn good at shame. That sets the stage for understanding the next piece of the puzzle, right?

Absolutely. Because shame, that feeling of being flawed and unworthy, it's a huge obstacle to embracing vulnerability. Brown's research shows that learning to deal with shame, what she calls shame resilience, is absolutely essential if we want to live more open and courageous lives.

Okay. So, let's break that down. What exactly is shame, according to Brené Brown?

She defines it as that intensely painful feeling of believing we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love, belonging, and connection. It's that deep down feeling that there's something wrong with us, that we're not good enough. And it's the fear of being disconnected, of being alone.

And she says everyone experiences shame.

Right. It's a universal human experience. No one is immune to it.

In fact, she says that the only people who claim they never experience shame, are probably lacking empathy. They can't connect with others on that human level. It's part of what makes us human, even though it's uncomfortable.

And it seems like the ways we usually respond to shame, even though they feel like we're protecting ourselves, actually just push us further away from the connection we crave.

Exactly. Based on Dr. Hartling's work, Brown identifies three common ways people respond to shame. Moving away, moving toward, and moving against.

Moving away is like withdrawing, hiding, silencing yourself. Moving toward is trying to please everyone, becoming a chameleon, and moving against is lashing out, trying to control others. The problem is all these strategies offer temporary relief, but ultimately, they lead to more isolation.

And Brown even shares that story about accidentally hitting reply all instead of forward on an email, and it triggers this massive shame attack. It's so relatable, even though it's embarrassing.

It is. That dry mouth, racing heart, all those negative thoughts, it's classic shame. It shows how even small things can set off those intense feelings.

So how do we develop shame resilience? How do we deal with those attacks?

It starts with recognizing your personal shame triggers. What situations, comments, or feelings tend to bring up that sense of unworthiness. Then it's about understanding what shame is, how it works, how it affects you.

You have to be able to see it clearly. And then it's crucial to reach out and share your experience with someone you trust, someone who's earned the right to hear your story. And finally, it's about speaking your shame, bringing it out into the open where it loses its power.

She also talks about Pennebaker's research, which shows how powerful expressive writing can be for processing those shameful experiences.

Right. Studies show that even writing for a short time each day about difficult experiences can really improve your well-being, both physically and emotionally. It's a way to give a voice to those things that feel impossible to talk about.

And there's that powerful story about the man in the yellow eyes odd sweater, who talks about the deep shame men often feel about being vulnerable, the fear of being judged for showing weakness.

Yeah, that's a powerful midget. He talks about this shipping crate with a label that says, Caution, do not be perceived as weak. That really captures the pressure men feel to be stoic and in control.

Vulnerability is often seen as the opposite of masculinity. He describes this double bind where men are told to be more open emotionally, but then they're often met with discomfort or even ridicule when they actually do it.

And it wasn't just societal pressure. He mentioned that even his wife and daughters preferred him to be the strong, silent type.

That's a really important point. Brown's research found that women sometimes struggle with men's vulnerability and might actually prefer them to maintain that strong facade. It's something to think about.

She says the two most common responses she sees in men when they feel shame are to get angry or shut down. Neither of those is helpful for connection.

And that leads to more isolation, as we've talked about.

Exactly. And this tendency to be judgmental of others, it often comes from our own unacknowledged vulnerabilities and shame. As Brown says, I'm only as hard on others as I am on myself.

We judge others to deflect attention from our own perceived flaws.

She even talks about mean girl culture and suggests it can be a learned behavior, a distorted way of trying to feel secure by putting others down.

It's a kind of survival mechanism, but it's rooted in insecurity and fear of not belonging. And when we look at specific shame triggers, the conversations around sex and intimacy become really interesting. A therapist she interviewed suggested that men sometimes use pornography as a way to avoid the possibility of rejection in real intimacy.

It's a totally different perspective than why women often perceive men's use of pornography, which can be very triggering.

Yeah, for women, the shame is often about feeling like they're not enough, like they can't compete with those idealized images. The point is, vulnerability around intimacy is a universal experience, even if it shows up differently for different people.

And the antidote, it seems, isn't just about saying, I love you, but showing it through consistent actions. Trust, kindness, affection, respect, those are the things that build a strong foundation against shame.

Absolutely. Those daily acts of connection are so important. And when you look at the cultural expectations around masculinity and femininity, it's clear how shame gets tied up with those expectations.

It creates even more pressure to conform and hide our true selves.

Which leads us to that beautiful passage from The Velveteen Rabbit about becoming real.

It's a perfect illustration of vulnerability and connection. It's through being seen and loved, flaws and all, for a long time, that we become real. Even with all our imperfections, we're loved for who we are, not who we pretend to be.

So now we're starting to understand why vulnerability is so important and how shame can block us from it. Let's talk about how we try to protect ourselves from that discomfort, what Brown calls the vulnerability armory.

Think of it as the emotional armor, the masks we develop to protect ourselves from the potential pain of being seen. We start building this armor pretty early on, often in our teenage years. And while everyone's armor is different, Brown found some common ways we try to protect ourselves.

She talks about three main shields. Let's start with foreboding joy. That sounds almost contradictory.

It is a paradox. It's that tendency to downplay or even dread joy because we're already anticipating something bad happening. We can't fully enjoy the good because we're waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I think a lot of people can relate to that. It's like we're afraid to jinx ourselves.

Exactly. And Brown found that people often feel most vulnerable when they're experiencing joy. She says that about 80% of parents report having intrusive thoughts about something bad happening to their children.

And it happens most often when they're feeling the most love and happiness.

It's like we feel safer expecting the worst. And I think the constant stream of bad news we get from the media probably makes that worse.

Absolutely. It reinforces this idea that danger is always around the corner. Brown even tells a story about being in the car with her family, feeling this pure joy, and then seeing a horrible image flash across a news billboard.

It instantly shattered the moment.

So how do we fight that urge to sabotage our own joy? What's the daring greatly strategy for dealing with foreboding joy?

Gratitude. When you feel that vulnerability creeping in during a joyful moment, shift your focus to what you're grateful for. It changes the feeling from a warning to a reminder of how precious that moment is.

So instead of waiting for the other shoe to drop, we focus on the shoes we're wearing right now and appreciate them.

Exactly. And what's interesting is that Brown's research found that people often describe joy and gratitude as spiritual practices. They connected them to a sense of belonging and a belief in something bigger than themselves.

They even differentiated between happiness, which they saw as more dependent on external things, and joy, which was a deeper feeling that came from within and was rooted in gratitude.

So, the takeaway here is to let ourselves experience joy fully, without immediately trying to temper it with worry. We need to lean into those moments, even if it feels a little scary.

Right. Letting ourselves feel joy actually makes us more resilient. Brown tells this story about her daughter, Ellen, at the park.

Completely lost in the moment, just playing. That's the kind of joy we want to cultivate.

Okay. The second shield is perfectionism. This is something we hear a lot about, but Brown has a very specific take on it.

Yeah. She's clear that perfectionism is not the same as striving for excellence or wanting to achieve things. Perfectionism is about defense.

It's the belief that if we can just do everything perfectly, we can avoid blame, judgment, and ultimately shame.

It's like we're trying to build a wall around ourselves.

A 20-ton shield, as she puts it. And the sad thing is, it doesn't actually protect us from being seen. It prevents us from being truly seen because we're so focused on keeping up this impossible image.

It's not about self-improvement. It's about earning approval. It comes from this belief that I am what I accomplish and how well I accomplish it.

So healthy striving comes from a desire to grow, while perfectionism comes from fear of judgment.

Exactly. And perfectionism is exhausting. It doesn't actually help us achieve more in the long run.

In fact, research shows that it's linked to anxiety, depression and missed opportunities. And here's a key point. Brown says that perfectionism is actually a form of shame.

It's the belief that we're not enough as we are.

That's a powerful connection. So, the Daring Greatly strategy for dealing with perfectionism is self-compassion.

Right. It's about shifting from that constant worry about what will people think to a belief that I am enough. It's about accepting ourselves, flaws and all, and treating ourselves with the same kindness we'd offer a friend.

She shares some inspiring insights from people like Gretchen Rubin, Andrea Scherr and Nicholas Wilton. They all talk about the importance of embracing imperfection, especially in creative work. I love Wilton's analogy of art being like a tattered box that holds all the messy, imperfect parts of being human.

It's a great image. It's about recognizing that our imperfections aren't things to be ashamed of. They're part of what makes us human and allows us to connect with others.

Okay. The third shield is numbing. This one feels really relevant today with all the pressures and stress we face.

Yeah. Numbing is basically trying to shut down or avoid uncomfortable feelings by doing things that dull those feelings. It's often driven by that desire to escape the isolation and helplessness that can come with shame.

And it can show up in so many ways. It can be things like substance abuse, but it can also be less obvious things like spending too much time on screens working all the time or just staying constantly busy.

Right. Brown says all these numbing behaviors are connected to this desire to minimize vulnerability and project an image of being in control.

So, what are the Daring Greatly strategies for dealing with numbing?

There are a few. The most important is learning to actually feel our emotions instead of immediately trying to suppress them. Then it's about being aware of our numbing behaviors, recognizing the patterns and triggers.

We also need to learn to sit with uncomfortable emotions to experience them without judgment. And it's important to set boundaries, especially around our time and technology use. She gives the example of two groups.

Group A is constantly plugged in, and Group B is more intentional with their tech use. The difference is striking.

Yeah, it really shows how technology can be a form of numbing.

Absolutely. And the last two strategies are about finding true comfort, which means figuring out the difference between healthy, self-soothing, and just avoiding our feelings. And then it's about nurturing our spirit, which is that sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, a belief in meaning and love.

Underlying all of this is believing that we are worthy of love and belonging. If we don't believe that, we're more likely to try to numb the pain of that perceived lack.

She also tells those stories about the manicurists and the fast-food worker. It highlights how we can dehumanize each other when we're disconnected and not present. It shows how numbing can erode our empathy.

And she connects it back to her own experience working in the service industry.

Those stories are a reminder to really see each other, to acknowledge our shared humanity. As Martin Buber said, when two people relate to each other authentically and humanly, God is the electricity that surges between them. Numbing disconnects us from that.

So those are the three main shields. But there are some less common ones, right?

Yeah. Brown mentions a few others. There's the Viking or victim mentality, which is this black and white, win-lose world view.

It's common in some professions, but it can really damage collaboration and connection. Then there's letting it all hang out. It can look like vulnerability, but it's really just oversharing.

Sometimes it's a way to get attention or to test loyalty, but it's not true vulnerability.

So oversharing is not the same as being vulnerable.

Right. Vulnerability is intentional. It's built on trust.

And then there's serpentining. It's this indirect, roundabout way of avoiding vulnerability, like that's seen from the in-laws.

So, for those less common shields, the Daring Greatly strategies are about being direct, setting boundaries, building genuine connections, being present, paying attention, and moving forward even when things are uncomfortable. And she emphasizes the importance of having stretch mark friends, people who give honest feedback and keep us grounded.

It's about knowing who to trust and whose opinions actually matter.

And this idea of recognizing our armor and accepting the discomfort of vulnerability leads us to the idea of minding the gap.

Minding the gap is about noticing the difference between our values, what we say is important, and our actions, what we actually do. Living in alignment with our values requires vulnerability and shame resilience, because we're not going to get it right all the time.

She talks about how these gaps show up in families, like with things like respect, gratitude, and setting limits. Parents' actions don't always match their stated values.

Right. Those examples show how hard it is to live authentically and with integrity. And in education and the workplace, Brown argues that to really foster creativity and learning, leaders, and she defines a leader, as anyone who helps others reach their potential need to make those spaces more human.

They need to understand scarcity thinking, engage with vulnerability, and combat shame.

It's about creating a culture where it's okay to take risks and make mistakes.

Exactly. One of the biggest barriers to creativity is the fear of being ridiculed for having an idea. People are afraid of looking stupid or failing.

But to make progress, we have to step outside our comfort zones and accept that we might fail.

She uses the analogy of termites to show how shame can silently destroy organizations.

It eats away at trust and motivation, and it ultimately prevents success. She gives that example of the sales manager who used public shaming as a tactic. It's a perfect example of how a shame-based approach destroys morale and drives people away.

Then there's the story about the Houston Chronicle Misreporting Teacher bonuses. It shows how public shaming can really hurt people's motivation and well[…]

So how do we create environments where people can give and receive honest feedback and actually grow?

Brown says constructive feedback thrives in cultures where discomfort is normal. It's about shifting from trying to avoid difficult conversations to accepting that discomfort is part of learning and growing. She suggests a strengths perspective for giving feedback, which means focusing on what someone does well, along with identifying areas for improvement.

She gives that example of the classroom presentation feedback. Students had to identify both strengths and weaknesses in their presentations and use their strengths to improve. It's a really practical way to apply that idea.

Right. And she contrasts this with armored feedback, which is just giving criticism without any empathy or support. It's usually driven by anger and doesn't lead to positive change.

She even gives a feedback checklist, which focuses on giving feedback without shame, owning your part in the situation, expressing gratitude, focusing on growth, and being vulnerable yourself.

It makes you think about how different things could be if we focused on collaboration and support instead of judgment and blame. She also talks about entrepreneurs like Gay Gattis and Christine Day, who emphasize how important vulnerability is for leadership and innovation. And the idea of creating a mandate, basically, telling people what you need from them, is really powerful for building understanding and connection.

It's about being clear about your needs and setting boundaries.

Okay. Lastly, let's talk about wholehearted parenting. I think this is a source of anxiety for a lot of parents.

It is. But Brown's message here is really important. She says that who we are as parents is far more important than any specific parenting technique.

If we want to raise children who love and accept themselves, we have to love and accept ourselves.

So, our own vulnerability and authenticity as parents sets an example for our children.

Exactly. She tells these great stories about her own kids, Ellen and Charlie, and how they understand the difference between shame and guilt. And she points to research that shows that the brain processes social rejection and shame, like physical pain.

It suggests that childhood shame can have long-lasting effects. That's why it's so important to talk openly with our children about shame.

And it's not about trying to be the perfect parent. There are many ways to be a good parent. The important thing is to be engaged.

Exactly. Engaged parenting is about being present, trying to understand your child's world and living your values instead of chasing some idea of perfection and one of the hardest but bravest things we can do as parents is to let our children struggle.

It's so hard to watch them go through tough times. We just want to protect them.

I know. But Brown talks about CR Snyder's research on hope. He says, hope is about having goals, knowing how to reach them and feeling like you have control over your life.

By letting our children face challenges, we help them develop hope and resilience. She tells the story about her daughter Ellen's swim meet. It's about how hard it is to let go and just be there for our kids, even when they might not succeed.

It all goes back to that quote from Theodore Roosevelt about the man in the arena.

That quote is really at the heart of Daring Greatly. It's about having the courage to show up and be vulnerable, even when you might fail or be criticized. The story about the young man who declares his love and gets rejected, that's a perfect example.

It's about putting yourself out there no matter what your arena is.

So, to sum up this deep dive into Daring Greatly, vulnerability is not weakness. It's actually the foundation for a meaningful life. It takes courage, compassion and connection.

And to embrace vulnerability, we have to challenge those messages that tell us we're not enough.

The key takeaways are understanding shame and building shame resilience, practicing gratitude and self-compassion, setting boundaries and building authentic connections.

So, for our listeners, what are some things you can do to start applying these ideas in your life?

First, take some time to reflect on your own vulnerability armor. How do you usually protect yourself? Then, think of one small step you can take to be a little more vulnerable in a safe relationship.

Pay attention to how you react to shame. When you feel that sense of unworthiness, try to practice those four elements of shame resilience. Recognize your triggers.

Understand what's happening. Reach out to someone you trust and try to talk about your shame. You could also start a gratitude journal or just take a few minutes each day to appreciate the good things in your life.

And most importantly, be kind to yourself and others. Remember that everyone is dealing with their own vulnerabilities.

That's all-great advice. And as we wrap up, I want to leave you with this thought. What becomes possible in your life when you show up authentically, imperfections and all?

What arena are you being called to step into?

That's a great question to think about.

Thanks for joining us for this deep dive. We'll see you next time.

See you then.

We hope you're leaving with fresh insights and a spark of inspiration. Remember to subscribe, leave a review, and check back for more episodes as we dive into new worlds of thought, one book at a time. Until then, keep your mind set in stone and your curiosity open.

This has been a Big L Riz Media Podcast, where big ideas meet lasting impressions.